<div dir="auto">Damn. I knew I forgot something. Now where are my glasses.<div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 17:17 Douglas Eadline <<a href="mailto:deadline@eadline.org">deadline@eadline.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> I don't want to interrupt the flow but I'M feeling cheeky. One word can<br>
> solve everything "Fortran". There I said it.<br>
<br>
Of course, but you forgot "now get off my lawn"<br>
<br>
--<br>
Doug<br>
<br>
><br>
> Jeff<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 17:03 Douglas Eadline <<a href="mailto:deadline@eadline.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">deadline@eadline.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> > Then given we are reaching these limitations how come we don’t<br>
>> integrate<br>
>> > certain things from the HPC world into every day computing so to<br>
>> speak.<br>
>><br>
>> Scalable/parallel computing is hard and hard costs time and money.<br>
>> In HPC the performance often justifies the means, in other<br>
>> sectors the cost must justify the means.<br>
>><br>
>> HPC has traditionally trickled down in to other sectors. However,<br>
>> many or the HPC problem types are not traditional computing<br>
>> problems. This situation is changing a bit with things<br>
>> like Hadoop/Spark/Tensor Flow<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Doug<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On 14/03/2019, 19:14, "Douglas Eadline" <<a href="mailto:deadline@eadline.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">deadline@eadline.org</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > > Hi Douglas,<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Isnt there quantum computing being developed in terms of CPUs at<br>
>> > this<br>
>> > > point?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > QC is (theoretically) unreasonably good at some things at other<br>
>> > there may me classic algorithms that work better. As far as I<br>
>> know,<br>
>> > there has been no demonstration of "quantum<br>
>> > supremacy" where a quantum computer is shown<br>
>> > to be faster than a classical algorithm.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Getting there, not there yet.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > BTW, if you want to know what is going on with QC<br>
>> > read Scott Aaronson's blog<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > I usually get through the first few paragraphs and<br>
>> > then whoosh over my scientific pay grade<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > > Also is it really about the speed any more rather then how<br>
>> > > optimized the code is to take advantage of the multiple cores<br>
>> that<br>
>> > a<br>
>> > > system has?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > That is because the clock rate increase slowed to a crawl.<br>
>> > Adding cores was a way to "offer" more performance, but introduced<br>
>> > the "multi-core tax." That is, programing for multi-core is<br>
>> > harder and costlier than a single core. Also, much<br>
>> > harder to optimize. In HPC we are lucky, we are used to<br>
>> > designing MPI codes that scale with more cores (no mater<br>
>> > where they live, same die, next socket, another server).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Also, more cores usually means lower single core<br>
>> > frequency to fit into a given power envelope (die shrinks help<br>
>> > with this but based on everything I have read, we are about<br>
>> > at the end of the line) It also means lower absolute memory<br>
>> > BW per core although more memory channels help a bit.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Doug<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > On 13/03/2019, 22:22, "Douglas Eadline" <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:deadline@eadline.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">deadline@eadline.org</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > I realize it is bad form to reply ones own post and<br>
>> > > I forgot to mention something.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Basically the HW performance parade is getting harder<br>
>> > > to celebrate. Clock frequencies have been slowly<br>
>> > > increasing while cores are multiply rather quickly.<br>
>> > > Single core performance boosts are mostly coming<br>
>> > > from accelerators. Added to the fact that speculation<br>
>> > > technology when managed for security, slows things down.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > What this means, the focus on software performance<br>
>> > > and optimization is going to increase because we can just<br>
>> > > buy new hardware and improve things anymore.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > I believe languages like Julia can help with this situation.<br>
>> > > For a while.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > --<br>
>> > > Doug<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > >> Hi All,<br>
>> > > >> Basically I have sat down with my colleague and we have<br>
>> opted<br>
>> > to go<br>
>> > > down<br>
>> > > > the route of Julia with JuliaDB for this project. But here<br>
>> is<br>
>> > an<br>
>> > > > interesting thought that I have been pondering if Julia is<br>
>> an<br>
>> > up<br>
>> > > and<br>
>> > > > coming fast language to work with for large amounts of<br>
>> data<br>
>> > how<br>
>> > > will<br>
>> > > > that<br>
>> > > >> affect HPC and the way it is currently used and HPC<br>
>> systems<br>
>> > > created?<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > First, IMO good choice.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Second a short list of actual conversations.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > 1) "This code is written in Fortran." I have been met with<br>
>> > > > puzzling looks when I say the the word "Fortran." Then it<br>
>> > > > comes, "... ancient language, why not port to modern ..."<br>
>> > > > If you are asking that question young Padawan you have<br>
>> > > > much to learn, maybe try web pages"<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > 2) I'll just use Python because it works on my Laptop.<br>
>> > > > Later, "It will just run faster on a cluster, right?"<br>
>> > > > and "My little Python program is now kind-of big and has<br>
>> > > > become slow, should I use TensorFlow?"<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > 3) <mcoy><br>
>> > > > "Dammit Jim, I don't want to learn/write Fortran,C,C++ and<br>
>> > MPI.<br>
>> > > > I'm a (fill in domain specific scientific/technical<br>
>> > position)"<br>
>> > > > </mcoy><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > My reply,"I agree and wish there was a better answer to<br>
>> that<br>
>> > > question.<br>
>> > > > The computing industry has made great strides in HW with<br>
>> > > > multi-core, clusters etc. Software tools have always<br>
>> lagged<br>
>> > > > hardware. In the case of HPC it is a slow process and<br>
>> > > > in HPC the whole programming "thing" is not as "easy" as<br>
>> > > > it is in other sectors, warp drives and transporters<br>
>> > > > take a little extra effort.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > 4) Then I suggest Julia, "I invite you to try Julia. It is<br>
>> > > > easy to get started, fast, and can grow with you<br>
>> > application."<br>
>> > > > Then I might say, "In a way it is HPC BASIC, it you are<br>
>> old<br>
>> > > > enough you will understand what I mean by that."<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > The question with languages like Julia (or Chapel, etc)<br>
>> is:<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > "How much performance are you willing to give up for<br>
>> > > convenience?"<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > The goal is to keep the programmer close to the problem at<br>
>> > hand<br>
>> > > > and away from the nuances of the underlying hardware.<br>
>> > Obviously<br>
>> > > > the more performance needed, the closer you need to get to<br>
>> > the<br>
>> > > hardware.<br>
>> > > > This decision goes beyond software tools, there are all<br>
>> kinds<br>
>> > > > of cost/benefits that need to be considered. And, then<br>
>> there<br>
>> > > > is IO ...<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > --<br>
>> > > > Doug<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > >> Regards,<br>
>> > > >> Jonathan<br>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> > > >> From: Beowulf <<a href="mailto:beowulf-bounces@beowulf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">beowulf-bounces@beowulf.org</a>> On Behalf Of<br>
>> > Michael<br>
>> > > Di<br>
>> > > > Domenico<br>
>> > > >> Sent: 04 March 2019 17:39<br>
>> > > >> Cc: Beowulf Mailing List <<a href="mailto:beowulf@beowulf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">beowulf@beowulf.org</a>><br>
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [Beowulf] Large amounts of data to store and<br>
>> > process<br>
>> > > On<br>
>> > > > Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 8:18 AM Jonathan Aquilina<br>
>> > > > <<a href="mailto:jaquilina@eagleeyet.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jaquilina@eagleeyet.net</a>><br>
>> > > >> wrote:<br>
>> > > >>> As previously mentioned we<br>
>> > don’t<br>
>> really need to have<br>
>> > > anything<br>
>> > > >>> indexed<br>
>> > > > so I am thinking flat files are the way to go my only<br>
>> concern<br>
>> > is<br>
>> > > the<br>
>> > > > performance of large flat files.<br>
>> > > >> potentially, there are many factors in the work flow that<br>
>> > > ultimately<br>
>> > > > influence the decision as others have pointed out. my<br>
>> flat<br>
>> > file<br>
>> > > example<br>
>> > > > is only one, where we just repeatable blow through the<br>
>> files.<br>
>> > > >>> Isnt that what HDFS is for to deal with large flat<br>
>> files.<br>
>> > > >> large is relative. 256GB file isn't "large" anymore.<br>
>> i've<br>
>> > pushed<br>
>> > > TB<br>
>> > > > files through hadoop and run the terabyte sort benchmark,<br>
>> and<br>
>> > yes it<br>
>> > > can<br>
>> > > > be done in minutes (time-scale), but you need an<br>
>> astounding<br>
>> > amount<br>
>> > > of<br>
>> > > > hardware to do it (the last benchmark paper i saw, it was<br>
>> > something<br>
>> > > 1000<br>
>> > > > nodes). you can accomplish the same feat using less and<br>
>> less<br>
>> > > > complicated hardware/software<br>
>> > > >> and if your dev's are willing to adapt to the hadoop<br>
>> > ecosystem, you<br>
>> > > sunk<br>
>> > > > right off the dock.<br>
>> > > >> to get a more targeted answer from the numerous smart<br>
>> people<br>
>> > on<br>
>> > > the<br>
>> > > > list,<br>
>> > > >> you'd need to open up the app and workflow to us.<br>
>> there's<br>
>> > just too<br>
>> > > many<br>
>> > > > variables _______________________________________________<br>
>> > > >> Beowulf mailing list, <a href="mailto:Beowulf@beowulf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Beowulf@beowulf.org</a> sponsored by<br>
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>> > > Computing<br>
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>> > > >> _______________________________________________<br>
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>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > --<br>
>> > > > Doug<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > > > Beowulf mailing list, <a href="mailto:Beowulf@beowulf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Beowulf@beowulf.org</a> sponsored by<br>
>> > Penguin<br>
>> > > Computing<br>
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>> > visit<br>
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>> > > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > --<br>
>> > > Doug<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Doug<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Doug<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Doug<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>